eight Alex in North Dakota you're talking to Eric and Thomas how you doing hello sir thank you for having me how are you doing well doing well how about yourself I'm good thank good talk about your birthday apparently yeah cool happy birthday thank you thank you well so sorry that's okay go ahead man there's a lot there's there might be a bit of a delay go ahead it be well I'm new to this I just discovered Matt Dillahunty within the week and found you guys through that through him so I was just wanting to have some discussion about a handful of things I feel like they'll all bleed into one another so I just might as well start on one see where it goes just to get a kind of a starting point where are you currently when it comes to your beliefs are you Christian or atheist are you somewhere between I'm a Christian you're a Christian okay specific denomination I don't claim any denomination I attend about this church but I don't like the the nomenclature of you know the sights of Christianity I think if you believe in the Bible you have to believe the Bible you don't and that's how I okay well just just to give you a quick tool for that before we dive in have you heard of the no true Scotsman fallacy I have not okay the no true Scotsman fallacy goes I do this with Thomas Thomas all Scotsman wear kilts and Thomas would say look I duly I actually happen to have Scottish blood and I don't wear a kilt okay then you are not a true Scotsman oh great a fallacy because I have to cover in Scottish enough to claim to be Scottish so this was from Scotland and yeah born there and present Scottish when you are deciding who is and who isn't right and even then you can do you know a blood test and go okay well this is this is where his ancestry heralds from it's even harder to do so with religion if you say well all Christians do X well they don't do X therefore they're not a Christian it's it gets really really sticky especially on our side because we're not really in the business of telling religious people what they believe and what they qualify as we just kind of meet them where they're at and so when you say either you just believe or you don't believe we've had callers who call in and say well I believe this or I accept this part but I don't accept that part so I just kind of want to queue you into the kind of existence of those people like it's like how to engage with that tricky when you have thousands of denominations and they all adhere to the same Bible and they all read the same Bible and they all claim that they worship the God of the Bible but some of them take certain passages literally and some of them don't and some of them take others that you know may contradict or seemingly contradict with other passages you end up with tons of denominations and it's it's really hard to pinpoint and say which ones of them are and aren't Christians and so typically when we hear someone say that you're that they say I'm a Christian yeah I'm gonna believe you there now what do you believe yeah we'll work from there exactly the just just kind of just kind of a rabbit huh yeah so what did you want to talk about sorry about that okay well I want to start with it's related to what one of the previous callers was talking about a secular culture and oh I've noticed that America is obviously gravitating more toward a secular ism real secular morale and you know how I how I see actually what's funny is I actually feel like it's the opposite I feel like it's moving more and more towards theocracy I'm well I think the opposite can get very convoluted and that's why I say either you believe the Bible or you don't and there are plenty of people who say I believe in God where I have this opinion of the Bible bla bla bla but I think you you have everybody can have their own idea and that still strays from what the Bible says so either you society either going that way or it's not and I don't want to just ride a trail off onto that topic of absolute black and white I want to just see or hear your your stance on secularism a culture and how that is perhaps does that promote anti-christian perspective how does a Christian exist in a society like that sure absolutely um that's a really good question so first I would say that the definition of secular is that which is not religious right so that is the counterpoint to what is religious so we can actually talk about what is specifically religious right you can have religious religious rites and rituals right like communion you can have the act of prayer or the act of fasting in observance of that religion all of those things you can qualify as religious activities everything else is secular so you do secular things everyday like brushing your teeth putting on your pants going to work unless you work at a church you know um you you feeding the homeless right that's a secular action the religious action that someone might tie to that is going and doing a sermon before or after the meal right so when you say how do we see a more secular world I think we're already active in a mostly secular world because we have to be right the act of eating is secular the act of sleeping is secular and those are things that we need to do to survive and so when you talk about that I I kind of see us in that and so how do I see a Christian in that worldview well I think it's the most even place for both Christians and atheists Hindus and Muslims all to be able to coexist because you don't have specific you know laws that are saying well no it's this religion over yours or we're not we don't allow people of this religion in and I don't know about you Alex but I was a Christian soon after 9/11 and there were a lot of anti-muslim statements and sentiments that were echoed in my church I don't know if they were echoed in yours but they were nasty right and I think as we move toward creating a secular world we are buying that by necessity creating one where everybody kind of has an evil evil an equal playing field does that make sense it does I hear you and I where I consider it more secular than rather just been day-to-day because the things that you mentioned are just day-to-day activities in my perspective where the secular part comes in is removing God from the picture so I have no qualms with atheists having morality having an understanding of good and that helping your fellow man is obviously a good action now when you remove God from that picture I wonder how do you when at which point will the good or the bad start to lose the what I'm looking for like where's what is the standard go sure some will be go ahead no no no no I I don't mean to interrupt you please go ahead and finish what is our moral standard without God is that what you're saying yeah how do you keep a strict moral standard that is unchanging well why does it need to be unfailing okay no I think it needs to be unchanging because good can't be a changing thing bad can't be a changing thing you can't say that today it is good too or rather it is bad to lie and tomorrow it is good to lie I think that has there has to be a standard that is unchanging an order for there to be good and bad Alex one of one of the problems that I've had with religious morality is the fact that it remains set in stone even as we've learned more and so it hasn't been able to improve and an example of that was up until the late 1800s homosexuality was a capital offense in the UK the last person who was was killed for homosexual acts I believe was like late 1800s and even after it became no longer a capital crime it was still a crime and you had people like what's in an Alan Turing who he decoded he used the Enigma machine to decode the the German messages during World War two this guy was a brilliant brilliant guy and kind of the the forefather of computer science and he was gay and he faced tremendous tremendous government punishments simply for being gay and in a secular world you can look at that and you can take a step back and say okay who is he harming okay he's not he's not a pedophile he's not a rapist he's engaging in consensual acts with an you know informed adult and there's no harm that's being done by that action so in a secular worldview we're able to take a step back and say there's no harm that's being done he's not detracting from someone else's pleasure or increasing their pain and suffering so why should he have to suffer or be killed or be chemically castrated or be imprisoned we can take these these ideas and we can actually improve an update our morality to based off of our understanding of how the world works whereas when you have a dogmatic system that set in stone from you know several thousand years ago when people I mean I there basically they're herding goats and they don't have computer systems and they don't even know what psychology is or psychiatry they don't have neuroscience they can't do it brain scans like all of these things are thousands of years outside of their reach they don't even have the printing press they don't even have access to books to leather-bound copies of books like the book of Eric sorry those just right here so it was my example understood that's okay when when you're in a society like that there's so much knowledge that is completely outside of your grasp and so you don't understand cognitive biases and self-delusions you don't understand the mental mistakes that people make naturally and so you're very prone to fall into those when you're coming up with this idea that Oh homosexuality is not natural well you don't know at that point that it actually is all throughout the animal kingdom there's animals that are engaging in it and even if it wasn't the fact that it's not natural doesn't make it bad vaccines aren't natural but they saved thousands and hundreds of thousands of lives medicine most medicine is not natural but it saves lives it's not immoral just because it's not natural and it's ideas like this that thousands of years of moral philosophy and education and scientific advancement have granted us now is our moral framework perfect now I don't think so are we still putting the pieces together sure but the fact is that we're learning more and the second that you say that this is the unalterable dogmatic Word of God and that's your standard you leave no room for updates no room for advancement and there's a lot of unnecessary suffering that inherently occurs that was a lot okay all right Alex what do you think yeah round of applause I I don't even think I have anything to add well I just a few little things but that was fantastic Alex what do you think I can understand respect that now where I disagree is the unnecessary suffering part and how people I hear this time and time again how by holding the Bible as a moral standard it leads to suffering for pretty much anybody who's not Christian and I think that's such a tremendous fallacy that makes me upset every time I think about it because I the whole point of well I mean I might be able to head this off actually okay I don't necessarily agree with that point you might be arguing with an atheist that's not on the show I don't think that the Bible and believing the Bible necessarily leads to suffering it all depends on what you do right examples being there are people who point to scriptures in the Bible to justify a whole bunch of horrendous acts I really I think Thomas did a great job of describing a few of them in that way I think it is used to justify bigotry sometimes but that doesn't mean that bigotry comes from it is just a vehicle for people to couch their bigotry in right I think that the most dangerous thing that Christianity and well most religions all religions the most dangerous thing that they do is a lot of them are built on this framework of epistemology right this is how we come to understand what is true did you ever hear somebody tell you well I believe the Bible because it stood the test of time right it stood the test of time does that make it true not really all it means is that it's old I mean the Gita is older than the Bible I believe yeah I believe the Bible because of prophecy that's been fulfilled well when it's written after the fact you can kind of squeeze anything in to fit what it I I don't know how that gets you to truth well I believe because God showed himself to so many people in the Bible well I can also write a book you know that's why I bring sarcastically out my own you know fictitious holy book to say well I could say the same thing in mind how do we verify right but if I can actually go out and fulfill hundreds of Nostradamus prophecies right now yeah maybe well but or you can just go and do a bunch of stuff and then afterwards write it down and say I'm prophesying this and living up to the prophecy it there's there's a whole bunch of stuff like that and while I don't think that all of it is necessarily dangerous in and of itself I think that the thinking that gets people to go oh this is this is enough for me to think that it's true that's really dangerous because a lot of people can put that into you know how they view politics or parenting or how to be a neighbor or an employee or a friend and when you do those things it can get really scary I want to make sure that their epistemology their thought process is as good as possible does that make sense it's like the difference between saying that just you know every single Christian or following Christianity will always inevitably lead to the suffering of non-christians versus it can it leaves that door open and there's problems with it right and you both touched on a couple of the things I wanted to talk about anyway but and if I were to I feel like atrocious acts have been committed on all sides because people are people we all naturally do evil things without even having to be inspired to do it but when people say well the Bible's justifying my reason for slavery or justifying my reason to attack homosexuals or to rape and pillage people who don't believe in my religion I feel like those are people who are misusing the Bible because it never advocates for any of those things what would and that wouldn't that be a privileged position of when you're living right now though because if we were to go back a few hundred years I think that the way you would understand the world would be fundamentally different and justifying some of those things right and now here's where I go back to my my stance on it either right or as wrong so the whole prospect of slavery rape and stoning stoning people for whatever reason you find just has always been wrong when taking into man's own hands now I know that wait wait hold on do you think that slavery rape and stoning people can ever be okay if Jesus had justified do you think it can ever be okay never at all okay I don't think do user has been okay and it won't become okay okay cuz you said taking into hands hands and so we're both like can your God do it would that make it okay I mean technically Mary was young don't worry Alex right but so I could because I just I don't like it when people always say well the Bible advocates these things because of what they see Christians do in the name of the Lord or in the name of the Word of God and then they justify these terrible things like Westboro Baptist Church doing this evil stuff we all know that it's bad and the Bible clearly doesn't say to those things but people misinterpret or they just take up it's upon themselves to act out on this stuff and they say God inspired me to do it and then it gives Christianity a bad name and makes people misunderstand what Christianity really is Alex and I feel like cuz this falls into no true Scotsman okay oh she's got okay yeah and and that's why we don't do that this is why we if somebody self identifies as a Christian we go okay then we go from there and the better of us will make sure that we're talking to a bigot before we accuse them of bigotry right I think the difference would be if you had if your Bible straight-up advocated a hundred percent of the time you know against you know stoning people to death or you know just slavery slavery rape things like that it would be a different story but the fact is that you go into the Bible and and you have Levitical law this is not just oh and then Johnny went out and raped someone or stone someone who did something bad it's not just an account of something that someone did that's not condoned it's literally the law of the land as handed down by God on tablets and told to Moses and not not all of it was on tablets but some of it and so you have this as the law from God that is written down in the Bible and it has things you know saying when you should stone disobedient children or stone adulterous women or kill people for wearing mixed fabrics or for planting two types of seeds in the same field like this is not something that you would expect in the divine holy book that transcends all of our knowledge about Thomas universe I bet you though that Alex has a justification Alex what's your justification you bet that I'm glad I've left that impression on you well my so I think it all comes down to context and I know you've heard this argument time it again context but when you consider the time I don't like at a time when you consider the people the Israelite people and how they were supposed to be separated from the world they were taken out of Egypt and Egypt represented the world although they're taken from Asia does whoa are you are you about to make an argument that it's understandable that the genocide and rape and and slavery was okayed because of the time no you said justify it according to the people correct well I'm not I don't think the time is as relevant as the context of the people okay is it always wrong is it always wrong to rape and murder and enslave yes okay perfect did what they do in the Bible was that wrong yes well first yes or no was it wrong it depends on the account no it doesn't you you said you said you said it is always wrong and then now you're saying it depends is rape and murder and slavery always wrong yes and I'm saying if we were to take it upon ourselves and just go and rape and slave and murder then we are wrong now when God said enslave or stone a child for disobeying parents you have to look at no you don't was talking to no you don't write you don't we even asked you can doc if God does it is that okay and you said no it's always wrong why are you going back it feels to me like you're going back on what you said you know the the only the only right and righteous treatment of a slave is to immediately grant them their freedom in the story okay if if you are owning another human being that is immoral now when you when you say it depends on the time or it depends on the context or it's bad for us to take it into our own hands but at the time no no I'm gonna have to stop you right when there are passages that say go in and slaughter the Amalekites man women and children except for the women who have not known a man by lying with him take them for yourselves that is condoning sexual slavery there is no circumstance under which that is moral you cannot say Oh at the time though the context that well those women you know if you'd slaughtered everyone but then you're actually granting them their life and so it's a difference you know you're you're being kind to them and giving them what no you're slaughtering their family and you're taking them into sexual slavery I think no that's jumping to an extreme conclusion based on a little bit of based on an extreme passage and and the context of those people arguing it Alex is not necessarily arguing it we have to find out if that's what he's saying Alex yes hey isn't that what you're saying what I'm saying is that when God gives an instruction it is a righteous thing because God is righteous okay if a person a hold on yeah no we're we're never gonna agree with you on that ever ever this is why secular morality is better there there's no out for anyone rape and murder genocide and all of that is never okay I didn't say that if all US has something it makes it okay and so a woman's testimony is gonna be half that of a man's and we should just kill the Jews who are living in our land there's I could do anything I could I could justify anything and it doesn't make it okay simply because you claim that God says it or because it's in a book that has stood the test of time or because it's a holy book just because you say that no we can actually have an objective standard that says if you are doing something that results in harm pain and suffering on another human being that is wrong I I think we found where we fundamentally disagree and Alex I I feel like you're I feel like you're you're wrestling with this and I don't feel like you're being dishonest and I think that you're you're observing this and I really hope that you take what we say to heart and and I hope that you hear because what we're advocating we're not advocating for you know anti Thea's omim the sense that like oh we're opposed to all Christians or we're opposed to all Muslims or we hate you or we want to you know persecute you or something like that that's not it at all we what we want to have a neutral environment where we can all practice our beliefs and have the freedom of and freedom from religion and but what we don't want it forced on us and an examples of that are people who are in the lgbtq+ community who are being discriminated against or persecuted people who have you know harmful laws that are placed against them because of justifications from the Bible and you don't have to go all the way back to slavery to find it and though so Alex yeah are we on the same page we honor I understand what you're saying and I realize we're gonna have disagreement well I so so fundamentally what you said is if God does it then it's righteous no matter what it is correct yeah think about that for a while because that's that that's our fundamental disconnect and weird where Thomas is coming from is once you go there you cannot stop the rest of the justifications that he gave anything becomes permissible but where we're starting here is a fundamental disagreement because God does it it is just or righteous and I would contend that rape slavery and genocide are never ever justified or righteous so I agree with you okay then your God did something immoral unrighteous unjustified do you understand that okay you guys I understand what you're saying and that's why I was talking about the mall standards you're saying that you have this moral standard all of a sudden and okay because God is saying that it's supposed to what you believe then it's wrong and what I'm saying is when God does something it's always right because God is moral standards now when he then that seems like a pretty fucked up moral standard Alex I ok listen he didn't I never did god say go rape people yes he has when you say no yes he has I've got my Bibble hold on a second if in the live chat you might actually beat me to it can we get a couple examples of justified rape I mean the one that I just gave of taking me Amalekite women for yourself I don't like white seed on is a consensual sexual partnership Deuteronomy 22 28 through 29 if a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver which is basically it's it's you know rape in the Bible based off of not just that first but others yes see one 7 through 11 if a man sells daughter as a servant she's not to go free as male servants do if she does not please the master who selected her for himself he must let her be redeemed he has no right to sell her to foreigners we're talking about owning people as property right and rape was seen as a property crime it was you know you have taken something her her purity from her and because she's the property of her her father and then her husband then you have to pay for the property it was Genesis 34 the story of Shechem and Dinah I mean we can keep going Deuteronomy 22 13 through 21 is to stone women for not being a virgin on their wedding night right so these were serious offenses to God to the Israelite people because he wanted them to be separate that's disgusting go and Alex hold on just stop there we can do . . that's gross do you think that is ever justified to do that to own women or treat them as property no no but your god so is it justified that your god did it it happened in a time in history where where it was okay for what reason for that specific people in that context of time and place that was what god and that time in history was barbaric yeah that's that's wrong dude that's wrong on every level if that aside simply first chosen people than i sure as hell hope he never chooses me but alex we've got other calls to take please call back in because i really do want to take time and and see if if your view changes on this because just because God did it makes it moral is a horrifying position to take and it sounds like you're wrestling with it because you know that somewhere you know that that's not adding up maybe I'm wrong but either way I appreciate your call all right you guys on I feel like you didn't let me finish my thoughts but maybe I'll call again some other time I appreciate it next time next time we won't jump all over you sorry about that all right then you take care thank you I mean I get where you were coming from but where you were going was a step ahead of where he you know what I mean it was the justification once you grant the premise that he was saying and while I agree with that I think we can cut them off at the premise I don't even think we need to go that far if we've opened the Bible then we've justified using it and I don't think we're ever justified in using it until somebody gives that justification yeah and I mean there's no other circumstance under which you would say that that that reasoning would sound anything other than barbaric I mean imagine if I were to substitute God with if I'm living in an under authoritarian regime and I say well actually you know if if kim jungeun says it therefore it's good yeah they say that and regimes like that and he's treated you know in a way as a deity and you know you cannot question his his word his word is law and his word is good and as soon as you often like you outsource that to the ethereal spiritual realm this notion of a deity which has no justification to even believe that it exists then you can all of a sudden start taking around this this book and saying that this is the voice of God and and therefore it's justified yes yeah and and if you have you know monarchies that come in and say and you had this all throughout the Dark Ages is you had monarchies that would come in and say you know the voice of the king is the voice of God you know I've been appointed and so therefore you know you're supposed to listen to everything that I say and it's as soon as you start doing that you have people that are able to hijack it you have Pope's and spiritual leaders and stuff who are able to say well this is what God wants and this is and they can they can use this book in any way that they want they can take passages and say well actually you know the New Testament says this but the Old Testament said that and while Jesus says this but you know Paul said this to clarify it and they you can do this you can do these gymnastics do all kinds of mental gymnastics the problem with it is that there's nothing in this book to lend any credence to the idea that it is actually divine convoluted and jumbled as fuck and if God actually was not as the Bible says the author of confusion I'm stealing this from cosmic sceptic if God is not the author of confusion the God is not the author of your Bible because this book is is all kinds of messed up yeah what he said

Author Since: Mar 11, 2019

  1. why is it that Christians will bend over backwards to justify the immorality of their god, its almost like their morals are secondary to what some book says. So sad

  2. this is insane hoop jumping, the worst bit is 28:00 "stoning women for not being virgin on their wedding night"
    Alex "Well they were serious offenses"…

    OOooooohhhhkay…. 98% of women in Denmark, had sex before marriage, you just justified stoning basically all married women in my country motherfucker!

  3. I think Thomas was referring to the Midianites. The Rape of the Midianites took place in Numbers 31 v. 15-18 which refers to a particularly horrifice conquest rape. Christians have never succeeded in justifying this.

  4. The consequences that come with culture moving towards secularism is women having penis's and people are confused as what public bathrooms they are to use. Its happening.

  5. You don't need books or computers to have empathy towards people. Secular morality is all about combining that with well-being. Also, as Matt has said countless times, it's situational ethics at play. So, Alex's remark about "you can't say lying one day is bad and another day good" fails to address that.

  6. "Good and bad can't change over time" 8:30

    Lol, ok, now tell us about how slavery was OK in biblical times, but how opposing it today is "Christian", too.

  7. I often point out that, in order to be moral, one must do what one believes to be right, even when nobody is observing. Christians fundamentally cannot do this. They believe in a cosmic scorekeeper that is always watching. Which means it is impossible for a christian to be moral, ever, under any circumstances. They just can't. Christians have no moral codes. They have arbitrary ethics that they suck at following, but no morals. In a very real way, Atheists are the only ones who actually can be moral.

  8. The consequences of becoming more secular is the dumbing down of America. It also makes it highly likely we will be judged more often by God.

  9. Morality was time dependent. Would anyone want to engage in animal sacrifices today. Yech! No. The fact that these individuals think that 21st century morality should have been in effect 3000 years ago is crazy whether biblically based or not. They are sitting in judgement of people who if they heard the panels arguments three thousand years ago would think that they are justifiably NUTS and in need of help!

  10. Eric, you didn't "jump all over" Alex; you forced him to justify his claim that "if god does it, it's moral!" Raping young women is never moral. Owning slaves is not moral. A moral deity would never instruct people to do those things.

    Those "instructions" are clear examples — proof, if you will — that "god" is a creation of morally primitive Iron Age goat-herders.

  11. When I talk to German Christians about this, their response is always the same and always different from this caller’s: “but that was the Old Testament, that doesn’t count anymore, it was superseded by the new one.” Seems odd to me that their God would do such a 180 on these topics, and that their religion would still insist on keeping that stuff in the Bible – but I guess it’s progress that they are distancing themselves from that?

  12. The only thing that's changed from now and then is we now call slavery, minimum wage. Trying to justify it by saying you dont actually own someone doesn't make it right. Humanity just figured out its alot more economic for the "controlled" to pay you to live, then you paying to house them. Human genius.

  13. Don't forget William Lane Craig's bullshit explanation about the slaughter of all those tribes around the ancient Israelites. The women and men deserved what they got (death and eternal Hell), the innocent children (unbaptized and non-Christian) went straight to Heaven (doing them a favour), the virgin young women got "virtuous" and Godly "husbands" out of the deal… and the only people who actually suffered… were those poor Israelite soldiers who had to do all that slaughtering and raping … because God had commanded it. Those poor innocent soldiers, merely following orders like good little Nazis, sniffle, … had me a tissue…

  14. I wonder what this idiot has to say about Numbers 5:11-21; Exodus 21:22-25; 2 Kings 8:12; 2 Kings 15:16; Hosea 9:10-16; Matthew 24:19; Isaiah 13:18
    Probably some bullshit rubbish like "God is good, it's different, out of context" blah blah blah
    Yeah this moron has no idea what morality is.

  15. How is America becoming a theocracy when atheists and secular Americans are constantly rising? Is it cause your not getting your way on nationwide abortion?

  16. This is one of the best examples of what religion does to otherwise good people….. Alex has intelligence, reasoning, a moral compass…. right up until it conflicts with his indoctrination…. Then it is all out the window in favor of an immoral holy book and the monstrous god character it presents. If Alex would just continue his reasoning rather than accept with blind faith these stone age myths, he would come to a much different conclusion. He may still choose to believe, but he would have to live with the fact that he is worshipping an immoral god.

  17. Ezekiel 23: "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."
    The Bible IS porn lol!

  18. Caller claims unchanging moral standard is necessary and spends the call explaining why God changes his moral standard for different people at different times.

  19. Dear Alex; We're trying to keep it secular since and because of the horrid god-believing dark ages. Lets keep doing just that, and try prevent any god-believing theocracy to ever take hold again. Right?

    (edited out a typo)

  20. I am a strong atheist but I completely disagree with "man to the left"'s argument on homosexuality. Why they keep bringing that up is beyond me. It has nothing to do with theism it is just an obviously degenerate life style choice. Sure, it is relevantly harmless when kept behind closed doors, but it has serious ramifications when it is held up as socially acceptable behaviour, it just so obviously isn't. Whilst I don't personally agree that it should be illegal, I don't think I should have to pay tax either.

  21. It’s simple and a very short phone call. Ask the caller if it’s okay that his God rape and murder the caller’s mother, sister, father, girlfriend in the name of righteousness. If like this confused muppet, they allow and justify it, end of call. They have no actual morality they’re just a corrupt robot following evil leaders.

  22. Kim Jong God? Millions of North Korean people acknowledge the Kim family, their leader exactly the same was as such Christians consider their God of the Bible. Which is why every time Kim Jong Un plays golf, he gets a hole-in-one.

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