so how did you become a historian that is to start the center indirectly very indirectly I had no love of history as a high school student I had no a need or desire to ever become a historian and it's true for my years let's say in upper classes in high school in Paris where I remember very well historic history lessons on French history of course and didn't like it I wasn't good either and then in Israel Jewish history when I finished high school didn't speak to me in the least and then years went by army and so on and when I came back to Paris to to study in the early 50s I want I studied political science I was at the hasta too dated politic in Paris and worked as Israeli embassy to 24 my upkeep and so I never I never thought of becoming a historian then I worked for years with an old man Shimon Peres and so on and when I came back to my doctoral studies in the very early 60s 61 actually in Geneva I again my PhD was in political science but I had chosen a historical topic that is history let see of international relations and strangely enough without being aware of it I chose something a topic which had to do with Nazi Germany not with the Druze though the American factor in German falling and military policy between 39 the beginning of the war in 1940 one when the United States entered the war my question I was asking was how did the idea the prospective or not of the US entering the war influenced Hitler strategic thinking and his and the military decisions from up to down in in Germany it i think the word jus didn't even appear in i'm a maybe i am pushing it too far because of course jewish was belt and so on in Hitler's eyes played a whole but again I I still was intent on being a political scientist and actually eventually going into into practical work in diplomacy or something like that so I I really am not born a historian or did I he aspire to become a historian but the past was pushing me without my really being aware that i would be was being pushed by the past and and when i was sitting in born in the the archives of the foreign ministry for this work on hitler and the united states i discovered a document which had been misplaced in the file us in Landsberg a veronica startin I've I found a document again misplaced which told of documenting German diplomatic document telling of an invitation by pope pius twelves to the Intendant of the Berlin opera who was coming to home for whatever concert I to maybe he invited the orchestra part of it of course to come to his papal apartments to perform scenes out of Parsifal it was december 41 and so I found this absolutely strange not to say shocking that the Pope could invite the Berlin appellate perform Parsifal in his apartments in December 1941 when all the horror of the Eastern Front was already known in part at least in in home as well and that led me to come back to born after finishing my PhD on the topic I mentioned and to us for the Vatican documents and what at that time so we are now in 1963 no but at a time in 1941 what was it exactly that the Vatican at that moment knew about they knew about the shooting the mass execution of Jews on occupied Soviet territory that is the notorious Einsatzgruppen operations killing thousands and thousands actually within the six months between the attack German attack on Soviet Union June 41 and at the end of the year there were some 700,000 Jews killed murdered by the Einsatzgruppen and this was in part known at the Vatican because of various people the head indeed East in eastern Poland which had been which was part of those of these murderous campaign it had been occupied by the Soviets between 39 41 so it was liberated Soviet territory by the Germans high and the in Poland of course they were lot of emissaries of the Vatican informing of what was going on easton polish territory and general government also and then many messages came from the Ukraine and so on so that we know that there was good knowledge if maybe not complete knowledge but good knowledge in the Vatican about what was going on in the eastern territories under German occupation but all in all the persecutions were known the the hunt for the Jews was known so in at that time also things happened with priests in importantly and priests in Poland and then mentally ill in Germany right the killing of the mentally ill so things were pretty clear about the murderous dimension of the regime particularly after the beginning of the war I saw the invitation to the Berlin opera which I'm sure was also had its artistic reasons I'm not saying this was purely a political act but I'm sure that the Pope was aware of the political dimension of an initiative of that kind which by the way it never took place the concert it was cancelled and I don't know nobody knows by whom but it didn't take place so but still you ask me how did I become a historian this in a way led me to come back to born to ask for the Vatican files and as I was preparing than the documentation which became a book pious 12 in the Third Reich in 1964 I felt that he'll I was suddenly doing something which fitted my how could I say this was fitting to me much more than political science much more than my previous inquiries I was suddenly Damone LMO you would say in French and I realized of course by didn't need demand much introspection to understand that actually my past was coming back that had spent the war from 42 to the end and little beyond the end in in a cathodic seminary I had been baptized and was firm Catholic during the Warriors as a kid of 10 to 13 14 and so this topic of the church and the said I was exactly at the Jews was exactly what what was the core of my being at that time and from then on it became for me I mean I started writing on those topics and from various angry's but by now I had found my way so that's why i said indirectly I really had no passion for history as a youngster nor any interest major interest over the early years of adulthood intent for some reason I chose a kind of historical approach to the Third Reich which was already closed for my dissertation but still not aware that I was really coming back slowly to my own existential in a way a framework and then with the Pope with this incident and twister the book on the on the Vatican I suddenly was back in da moneh demo how would you summarize what were your conclusions in in that book really about the Pope yep at that time at that time and book came out in 64 which by the way was in the midst of the world Hawkwood controversy volvo food was a German drama to Leigh with Leigh light indeed and I had written a play which was became a worldwide sensation we can destroy a traitor in German about Pope Pius 12 and his inaction let's put it that way during the extermination of the Jews of Europe and specifically the deportation of the Druze of home in 43 so a I didn't know of the play when I was assembling my material and I met I never met who'd personally but we spoke on the phone a year or two later so but my book came out in this controversy by then I was aware of the controversy and so it created a lot of positive and negative reactions also positive and also from Catholic priests or even cardinalities law who were to me a letter published in the meantime saying it's good that the tools be known and so on the conclusions were that as a political institution the calculations of the Vatican could be seen from a political angle as ultimately in acceptable but acceptable in the context of the fear of Bolshevism and need to to do everything to support the forces that would fight the uncommon Bolshevik threat mainly after studying God from a spiritual viewpoint there was the labs or at least it looked like a lapse for aim for a personality the Pope The Vicar of Christ who by his own by his definition of his own hole and I don't speak of biased right now but of the papacy of the ball was a representative of the highest moral force in the world right that was this whole his self definition and on that count the silence in the in the face of such abomination which certainly was well known in 43 when the Jews of warm were deported was a lapse which remained would remain as a kind of deep shadow on the history of the church and on that word the debate was on that and I I didn't for years and years didn't really I followed the documentation and controversies and now they're recently 19 in 2010 the French my French publisher the same as in the old days re published his book and I added the kind of short conclusion bringing in the topic maybe to its present to what we know today and didn't change my opinion which you may say well it's to be expected but I'm very detached from the topic today and yet the new material we have accumulated over 45 years seems to indicate the same conclusions what method did you use in that that purported methodology did it have you said something about that in the here in the introduction to the book remember you means you the first edition of the book I i must say that i never reread my introduction not even for this but i know what concerned me at the time what concerned me was more to find a it to safeguard against myself that is that one could say and it has been said but i never you know I never really went into debates and so on to express to about myself about the topic years the safe gap about myself one could say where this guy he has been saved by in a Catholic institution it's too I certainly by being in from 42 to the end of the war in this cathodic institutional and I know the name and so on nas identity baptized and everything I was saved so i must have probably one could say some kind of resentment which led me to hide to book so critical of the Pope was the Pope at the time when I was saved so I was aware of of what could be said and I had given that manuscript first the manuscript of this book a tool des edition mini which is a French publisher we're at the time where the left wing and Jewish homeland oh who had just published that I talk to you I think about torture in Algeria I had another title it's it skips me at this moment but like sto lat kiss you that's it thank you so I gave him the manuscript and he media did within a day and told me ah this will be a book and so on and to my personal misfortune I regret in a way regret on his subjective level not on an objective level I had to take the manuscript back because I understood that this was a wrong choice left-wing publisher Jewish publisher of course that would reinforce the argument that there was here a kind of emotional resentment a desire of being aggressive which I was not my intention in any way so i took the manuscript and went to a left-wing liberal open catholic publisher des edition say at that time still very much very much directed by its owner and end person who established Palama remarkable man remarkably publisher and he took the manuscript and said we will read it together and i will ask another historian Ragno baku a good friend of mine catholic very Catholic to participate and we will see where your voice is let's say not neutral and indeed that is what didn't impose on me any change but they asked me in some some moments when I said let's say this and this and this was the the attitudes of so on so to say maybe I mean to put elements of it's a hesitation in in strict affirmations in order to to leave it open which I did flamma by the way when to home I went to the Vatican spoke to the den Secretary of State I think it was it was Paul 6 who was the Pope Monsignor casa wally was the secretary of state asked him if I could have access to the Vatican documents was told that I could not have access to the Vatican document of the war time to this day nobody has had access except for jay's with historians who of course selected document so that the book was published with the German documents only but this is said clearly in the introduction if I remember correctly what I remember of the introduction and it said clearly how much I care was taken of keeping a distance and not getting in any way passionate or involved emotionally in the conclusions of the book so that is probably the method you mentioned but I'm not true i did use documents in there and i use entire texts actually this the subtitle of the book is being document assume a documentation we do that it was him I in Dhaka motor co that is I didn't ever pretend that I was writing a historical book of the usual kind but that I argued that I had bought together a collection of documents for reasons which were explained I didn't have the Vatican documents but I had German documents accessible at that time and not much has been added to that for the war period regarding the way German diplomats and others saw the Vatican and the relations and correspondence of German diplomats i use the American foreign relations of the United States which is the collection of American documents i use british some british documents some french documents which I one had access to and documents from the Zionist archives in Jerusalem which were important mainly for attempts at the end of the war to have access to Jewish children hidden in Catholic institutions that is what I had at the time and whatever documents published by the church one could have at the time I of course included but I didn't select the documents or I didn't mainly cut the texts because again for the reason which I mentioned before that is not to give any opening to the argument that I was manipulating my documentation so I was really I it was a collection docomo and the short comments made from one document to the other to put them in context right the responses to the attack the German attack on the low countries and Belgium and so on I had to explain what was going on in a few words then the document and all the documents so this was all it had the same aim to give as distance and objective and picture as I could and I can say to this day that I don't know of any major document that I could have known at that time german american english or zionist let's say that i missed her of course today we know more that that came over the last 10 years there has been a book a few years ago called in English Hitler's Pope and I surely don't want to paint but present pacelli as Hitler spoke no way there was certainly a lot of tension between Nazi Germany and the Vatican on church issues and on the persecution of the polish church end of of troubles made for the German Church I mean and and all in all not see policies were surely not welcome as such regarding church matters and in that context urban was a pious twelfth was culturally very close to German culture I would say yes but why not he could have been close to do two french country was an italian that he was he had been known so that his delegate of the Vatican in Germany first in Bavaria and I'm in Berlin for from 1916 I single 17 until nineteen twenty nine so he knew German perfectly he was very close to German culture and had those surrounding him we're mostly Germans his head of household sister pass Karina was a Bavarian and his confessor was a there was a German and so on so that I say and is nothing wrong about that his anti-semitism was really deep anti-semitism know his his slightly negative attitude towards Jews was part of the attitude of the Church of his time even the very strong Bob which preceded him bias 11th was in that sense also an anti the Vatican and the Jews as a book with that title shows that the church at its core was critical or hostile even to Judaism to the Jews and to the activity of the Jews in the world and rules penetrating Christian civilization to destroy it and so on so the attitude of the Vatican was traditionally no to racial anti-semitism because of dogmatic problems if race is the major factor then baptism has no value you understand that is no converted Jew is seen as anything else but they drew by the ratio terry's no to racial anti-semitism but yes to defensive anti-semitism which is defending the Christians occasion society against infiltration of world jewelry and when in 1928 Pope Pius 1111 but condemned you know a Catholic organization which tied to find a rapport shmeh with Jews by changing some of the liturgy which was very anti-jewish holy from on mount Kalisa a horrified a in english you know use you played for perfidious tools leisure efkin feed and then you were not allowed to genuflect you prayed for many groups and I reflected each time but for the Druze no genuflection and perfidious which was centuries and centuries of cattle egret role and prayer and when a group 1928 try to change that it was dismissed by the Holy Office and the Jesuit periodical Civilta Cattolica the most important Chas with periodical actually in the world explained the position are by tightening the explanation the Jewish peril so no racial anti-semitism a defensive and semi this was pious 11th also I became more and more anti-nazi towards the end of his life it was taken over of course by pious 12 and was was the common not totally accepted but majority accept that attitude of the church in its official state its official statements regarding the Jewish Question so if you ask me pious 12 an anti-semite not in the extreme sense that yes in derm in the defensive sense the Jews are a dangerous and should be converted of course so that makes it more understandable that he has not intervened of course it makes it more understandable but it's more complicated than that I think that the question is ultimately was the Jewish issue and that is the extermination of the Jews by 43 this was clear and he knew it perfectly well from hundreds of sources was it cause a crucial a crucial challenge to Krishna consciousness or was it imaginary better if it was crucial to Krishna consciousness then his silence there was very problematic magalie but it's very probable that he didn't that in the calculations of the Vatican approp as a politician as a diplomat in it could well be that this was a marginal matter who will never know that but of course his main aim or his men fear was the Bolshevism and the Germans well then as his secretary of state defined in a bull Waldo a bulwark against the approaching communists and they were communists elements in the Italian resistance which Pope was very much worried about and he said to the Americans there can be disorder and so on and place the German it's in a way for keeping things in hand that's of course one aspect and then great I think ambition was to create a new coalition of the Western Christian forces Great Britain the United States and then on Nazi Germany is a defense of Christianity against Fred from the east and that's what by the way that's what happened in the Cold War not that the Pope turned it into that but remember schumann degasperi and and it was the third one human the French degasperi and adenauer of course this was the coalition of the of the 50s against the Soviet Union of course organized by the United State so in that sense if we take those big games as the as the core of vatican diplomacy the Jewish Question from this viewpoint looked minor matter the answer to this is yes this may be the background but this is not the whole story the Pope thought that making a declaration would endanger the church in then danger the church in Germany let's say oh occupied countries and endangered the Jews hiding and so he preferred to help wherever he could help but from what I know the research which we know of to this point in time that is 2010 shows that the church helped in many places in Europe and I am myself proof of it but these were initiatives which came from the local bishops of the local institutions even in Italy and there is no sign of any instruction even all instruction given by pius 12 to help or not to help that is there it's futile so it could again be a matter of being very careful not to give any opening to the Germans let's say retaliate oh it would it could mean that this was a secondary matter in the little essay you mentioned an encyclical of pious 11 that he was writing just before his death Manny kien eres una toss and that was then put to sleep by by Pope Pius 12 did you know about that when you were writing the book or is that a new yeah that's new nobody knew about it as far I except those who were involved in this a book came out in two thousand five or four by two by two authors one of them a priest I think may pass Alec and cold logical Akashi dissociation show in missed opportunity of the church again to told to speak against anti-semitism there's a long title i forgot now the exact title and it was a revelation that what they tell in that book is that in the summer of nineteen thirty-eight pious 11 already not in good health and failed decided nonetheless taken initiative against Nazi anti-semitism and asked from an American Jesuit a German jazz with in the French jazz with John lafargue the American good laugh the German and wo the French I to draft to stright draft of a an encyclical that is a pronouncement of these are the main pronouncements against racial anti-semitism and that would probably have been ready sometime at the end of 38 now it was ready in the Orton of 38 it was sent home given I don't know by whom to the general of the Jesuits father laid off ski for seeing if if this was an acceptable text he kept he was also editor-in-chief of the or at least responsible for the cheetah católica which was really anti-semitic at that time he himself was a Polish priest general of the Jesuits he kept it I mean the tribute actor católica and Leno hope ski kept that for quite a long time until finally it was given to Pope pious 11 he was dying and it was found next to him next to his bed at his death of course pious 12 who succeeds that within days could not have ignored that he was secretary of state before and it surely was given a document of that importance and he decided to shelve it for whatever reason but the reason probably was that he wanted to write a policy of appeasement in regard to Germany contrarily to the growing attention which his predecessor was leading to so can you tell me something about the methodology you used in the book on the pub yes I will maybe i will read the introduction which was the introduction of the first edition I 1964 in which I kept in the re edition of 2010 because the method is the same and i will read it out in French which it was written in that language and it says what it says after mentioning the controversy about the question of the Pope's silence I went on saying the following far tell problem list or ERP difficile mop return I imperfect objectivity and then I go on saying that notwithstanding this difficulty of remaining objective there are rules to be followed very strictly and here I say malgré totally secure zasio refutation etc impossibility domestic SEO net demurrer Santa near otaku possible or document tell Ella regular the latude canoes abort oh please so the first we'll keep to the documents and then I go on and I say not only keep to the documents but in this case at least because of the possible accusations of all kinds quote the documents in extensive without cutting them and I say it in those terms exactly Oh salado so composite metodo logic on Osama Posey sol la cita seonyu docomo in extenso permet allows term elected on a valley laporte a Eleanor's veritable that is only in having the document totally in in extenso would allow the reader to sense the importance of the document and its significance within the context now did it help you we're not accused for writing this book for frostbite and for being Jewish where that of course the the argument was constantly that this must have been written the argument on one side because you get there was another side that is those were for the book the argument was well it's gettin for some is because of resentment and of course is Jewish and therefore there is a subjective element here which implies etc so you know I just repeated what I read here and I also mentioned the way I had gone about publishing this book that is in a Catholic left-wing but nonetheless cathodic publishing house which was where known in France at the time and with friends helping me to tone down sentences of questions which could have been considered as too sharp so the it's a very toned down version of what I could have written without this but I like it that way what was your final conclusion summarize the final conclusion at the time was at the time in 64 was that pious kept silent because of political opportunism let's put it very bluntly regarding the risks and so on facing Germany that is the Vatican in face of Germany and mainly the danger the peril of Bolshevism moving towards the center of Christian Europe situation which at that time could be held back o.o date weighs only thanks to the German bulwark I don't mean the Nazi bell work but that was the situation's a German the bulwark represented by the German army whatever the regime which again I said the Pope did not like but the I'm sure he considered Bolshevism as the greater danger to the church into Christianity and what is the essence of the essay which you recently added to the book well in essence i added the few arguments I mean the essay is based on many monographs written over the years over 45 years on the Vatican where there are new things and based also on new archives archives published by the way by the Vatican that is allowing the Vatican allowed historians to get into power to get at part of the material the archival material for the paper say of pious Elevens now for the topic it's quite important because 8 says a lot about bias Elevens and also because Petrelli Cardinal Pacelli or before that Bishop Petrelli then Cardinal Pacelli then Pope Pius 12 was the Nunzio in Germany in mu Nick then in Berlin and became secretary of state of pious 11th in 1930 and up to pious 11th des 1939 and then a few weeks later the same Cardinal Pacelli became Pope Pius 12 so it says a lot about his political attitudes at the time he was known xuan zang Secretary of State and explains a lot about his his position later on when he was Pope mainly on the on the Jewish issue now the conclusion added to what I said before regarding communism Bolshevism and let's say political opportunism would be in a nutshell that because of his stand by applier stances also on the Jews pious 12 probably did not consider the Jewish issue and the extermination of the Jews as a major problem or a major issue a major moral issue for the Catholic Church at the time he had this world problems which he considered a central deriving from the Bolshevik threat and so on and plans for a reshuffling of alliances I think in all that plus his mild anti-jewish positions over the years which we see very well in the thirties for all those reasons I think that he had no compassion for the fate of the Jews of Europe okay then what did you do fine what did you earn your living with while you were writing the book how long did you take the book the you mean the book about the Pope on my dissertation about the poor well I was I did my dissertation I came from my dissertation I came from Israel after having worked as I told you we first with nuffin Goldman that was work in the States and in Israel he was the president of the World Zionist Organization end of the world jewish congress i was this political secretary then i worked when I got married in 59 and started working in Israel with Shimon Peres who was then vice minister of defense and after year of working with Shimon Peres I decided that this all was not where I wanted to go decided to get back to my studies tied my luck at the Hebrew University couldn't get the fellowship because I we hadn't enough money for you know and upkeep of several years I couldn't get a fellowship couldn't be a assistant or something I and soul went to the place which offered me a fellowship I had asked several places and that was the the Graduate School of International Studies in Geneva the direct then director frame oh woe to me that I was welcome to my doctoral studies and I would tutor younger students and be given a fellowship so I came there it worked as a as a TA a we would call it teaching assistant and so on and did my usual example doctorate and started out my thesis when I finished my doctorate by pure chance don't forget we speak of the mid-60s not even the earlier part of the 60s the University landscape was opening immensely and as one of my colleagues fell ill and as there was enough need they offered me a job and when I wrote the book about the Pope I was already assistant professor that is the first level I at the instant graduate institute in Geneva so that I used my vacations and so on to travel to Germany and to do my research sometimes when for very few days and came back and had the material xerox at the time photographed right and and so I worked I had a job so there was nothing I mean it was hard work but nothing special about this so then then what after the book there was a lot of above a lot of noise yeah and then what did you feel like doing because I remember when we met for the first time in 1966 you told me that the next book you wanted to write was about the psychological basis of national socialism and that you wanted to write it together with a psychologist that came later the book that came after the book on the Pope it took me some time to get back on my feet if I may say from the book on the boat because it had created so much turmoil but again we speak now of 64 65 66 then I wrote rapidly a book which was linked to the previous subject a biography of God gastein who was a vava and SS in the waffen-ss that is the military SS the man in charge of of the hygiene of disinfection within the hygiene Department of the waffen-ss and as such and he had had some medical training and engineering training was in charge of at some moment was given the task of taking a quantity of gas disinfection gars cyclone be transporting it to eastern Poland Lublin and leaving it there and as he was in Lublin which was the headquarters of the extermination camps of eastern Poland accion Reinhardt cans Bichette Sobibor Treblinka as gaston was there he was asked he was offered a visit to the budgets extermination camp with the he says in his what he wrote at the end of the war with the head of the whole operation globert sneak i'm not sure that glow BOTS Nick went along but gosh time manifestly saw the camp and was there pleasant at the extermination of a dip avail of a train of dutch jews so that a I hope I i was told where the documents of gas tyne-wear why getch died k because the figure was astonishing well why astonishing because he tried them to to let the world know what he had seen I will come back to it in a second how why did I think of couch time because in Ho woods play he's mentioned as the as a as a personage may trying to alert the world and in particular the Vatican and in Ho who display it is said that he was worn out of the Vatican legation in Berlin which is true from what i know it's thrown out because I'd SS going to to can be totally all the never reason for his being asked not to come in so I knew that about this person and I of course was intrigued and asked a colleague of mine Leon Polyakov word written something about him where the documents were and i was given access to the doctor's gadget in front of documents invest area and took the documents and constructed this biography of gaps time they were huge documentation about him so a that's the book i did after the Khan the Pope it had really some relation with the prior subject this time turning to Protestantism but to a Protestant who was a kind of great figure among in the evangelical church as a resistor and so on also gas time just and tied 2-2 alert the world he talked to a Swedish diplomat in the train taking him back from Belgians about also Berlin and Swedish diplomat von Otter promised to inform Stockholm which he did but and we know after the war for nutter spoke of his conversation with Josh time but the Swedes kept information locked in their safe they didn't want to somehow antagonize the Germans by informing the Allies and so on then he tried to get into the Vatican negation in Berlin and was expelled then he tried to speak to the Swiss I think the console it hide a few things he was a very strange person by the way a very torn personality at the end of the war he he suffered more and more he has an extraordinary letter written by him to his father in 1944 the father was a Nazi and good girl Stein ought to him how can a father follow this guy i mean a letter which was prudent but which was extraordinary and extraordinary moral document at the end of the war he'd he met the Americans liberating Bavaria mid I mean sundered hold for reports on what he had seen in barrett's telling his story from A to Z um I mean in english one in french i think one of course in german yeah three reports i think and was the Americans delivered him to the French the French considered him as a war criminal because it was in charge of delivering the poison gas to the cams he continued after budgets to do that and he argues that he tried to destroy that he wanted to see what was going on and informed the world he was sent to prison in Paris and committed suicide he was by the way condemned as a small criminal by the Nazi by the by the court in Germany his family was not given pension or anything but then was rehabilitated 15 years of the war more by in 66 I think he was rehabilitated so that's the book i would after pious 12 and then after writing a book on israel i went reflection solid near lasalle 68 69 I indeed came back to the subject of the psychology of criminality in Nazism and this became actually SWA wipsy canalis but you didn't write that together with a psychiatrist no no I was it alone I never bought a book with a psychiatrist but this I wrote on my own having had some experience of psychoanalysis personally having read quite a lot on psychoanalysis story and also on psychohistory as an application of psychoanalysis to historical studies I thought well if there is a domain well this should be used its of course the behavior of the perpetrators in the epoch of Nazis finally I heard something much more general on on the use of psychoanalysis in history mentioning its application and my conclusion was that it's problematic actually for various reasons and then maybe before you may be right I wrote the book called lanti submit is Nazih East well Jim sickos collective you see it's linked with and there I try to apply what I afterwards considered as unfeasible to to Nazi anti-semitism of psychohistory but it's a kind of book I wouldn't want to republish today what did you expect of the possibility of psychohistory well I came to a negative conclusion I thought that facing the complexities of historical experience and of historical head of history as a his as I didn't interaction of an infinity of elements which you had to conceptualize 2 and so on what happened if you try to apply the concepts of psychoanalysis you flattened the you redo it was reductionist it you reduced the complex the rich complexity to too simplistic patterns all simplistic concepts which may have been very important if repeated and repeated and looked at from several angles in an individual therapy but in my opinion couldn't be applied significantly to social phenomena that's why I came this negative conclusion and never touched the topic really later on except on in hints here and there in the conclusions of that book mr. IFC vanities you wrote that history cannot really be well written when it is not from within and from without at the same time and I think that you have applied those methods in letter writing that is true but not in using na psychohistorical in a intentional framework I kept this later on but I don't think that the way I would later was it was I surely I'm aware of normally after all I told you it's normal that I would be aware of the d sometimes the the usefulness of being psychologically nuanced and understanding the writer and the writing and then the choice of subjects and end the attitude of of individuals in history and so on from let us say informed psychological viewpoint psychoanalytic if you wish but not as I never I didn't use it afterwards as a system of ridgid application of concepts to social phenomena

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